This is the weekly discussion for the students enrolled in English 3344, Studies in the Novel, at Texas Wesleyan University.
Spring 2008
Friday, February 15, 2008
Moll and Anne
Defoe's and Austen's protagonists could not be more different, I'd suggest (feel free to disagree), but the ideas in the novels are similar. Compare and contrast the treatment of the various themes--you choose--in Moll Flanders and Persuasion.
I would say the protagonists (Moll Flanders and Anne, in my opinion) in Moll Flanders and Persuasion are slightly different. But, yes, the story ideas are pretty similar to one another. However, Moll Flanders is a bit more ruthless about going after what she wants than Anne is, and doesn’t really give care to anyone who stands in her path. Anne on the other hand, is like the rising phoenix. She allows herself to be influenced by Lady Russell in the beginning, which Anne ends up regretting later in life.
Anne is a bit more reserved than Moll Flanders character is, but ends up being a hero in my opinion. She is considered an old lady past her prime at the age of 27, and is shunned by her own father and sister. In the end, Anne triumphs! Hahahaha! Both women, however, are “sheroes” in different ways, I would say.
I think these two characters may have started out very much alike but Moll's life takes a different turn after she got married the first time and her husband dies and she is left with nothing. Moll has to find ways to survive but her mehtods belies her womanhood. She chose one of the oldest professions and uses it as an excuse not to really do anything else. Anne, on the other, thinks about the providence of God and decides to be patient although her situation looks discouraging. She maintains a positive attitude and allows time to run its course in her life.
It’s obvious that the state of Anne and Moll’s sexual affairs differed tremendously, but the characters share some similar traits that are oft overlooked. Cleverness and wit both play a role in the women’s maturation. The main difference between the two is that Anne was considerate, and Moll didn’t show it until her final “repentance” at the end. Aside from sex and marriage, the economy and class structure are treated in similar fashions. In both novels, you are judged according to status, rather than merit. Moll and Anne take different paths towards their fulfillment, yet they end up at a familiar place. Everything is weighted and measured.
In Moll Flanders, Moll goes after what she wants regardless of the path that leads her there. Because of the importance of position and worth in society, women had to have money to be able to have a better life. Anne was different from Moll by the way she went with the flow of things and handled her situations more calmly. Both women, end the end, go about things differently, but end up getting what they desired.
In both novels, the marriage market is a major theme. Moll has a handful of marriages, whereas Anne could not even dream of the things that Moll got herself into. Marriage is a way out for both of these women-a way out of being alone without a source of stability. However, in Moll's case, marriage hardly ever meant stability. Her marriages and affairs were over and each time she was left with very little to live by. Moll had a more daring character and she was not nearly as timid as Anne. She was not as easily influenced as Anne was either. I would agree that though their characters were very different, their main goals appeared to be becoming wives so that they would have some sort of financial support and some way of keeping their social status, whatever that may be. It is obvious that Moll married more for necessity than for love and Anne finally got to be with the person she loved. I think this is the biggest difference between the two.
i said the main difference was their reasons for marriage-love vs. necessity. i agree with you about their motives in obtaining what they wanted. i also like how you put quotations around repentance when referring to moll.
I agree that while the protagonists in each of the novels are extremely different characters, there is a certain theme that continues to drive the story. This idea is wealth or social class/status. Moll Flanders lives nearly her entire life as a scam. She hides her true identity because it is not of an appropriate social class. She makes herself appear wealthy so that she can get what she wants to survive. Anne leads a very different type of life. She is very honest, trustworthy, and reliable. Yet, she makes the biggest decision of her life based on social statuses. She chooses not to marry Captain Wentworth due to the fact that he is not "good enough" for her, at least according to her family. Later, however, she still loves him and ends up marrying him. But the idea of social status is consistently used throughout the novel as reasons for making decisions.
I think that the characters are about equal amounts similar and different. Moll is a seemingly strong woman with a pretty questional moral compass but, some of Austen's characters seem to be the same. These people are so comsumed by the all mighty dollar that it consumes them. What separates them however is that Austen gives her main heroines the conscience to recognize and redeem themselves before it becomes just religious redemption.
I agree with your comparrison of these ladies. Both women did start out in the same way. Life just threw Moll curve balls and she did what she thought was ok towards obtaining her goal. Molly took things in stride and her faith in God allowed her the time for nature to take its course.
martin you did a very good job of comparing the two protagonists. it shows that you understood what both characters were about and analyzed them fairly.
actually, i couldn't have said it any better than what you have written in your comments.
I feel the ideas are similar, that of a woman trying to survive in a society that is clearly adversarial to the idea of women making it on their own. Perhaps women working and securing their own means is threatening to the societies in which these characters lived; if women can choose their own path, if they can secure their own means of financial support, if they can fend for themselves, where does that leave men? Are the men afraid that the only position they can fill in such a society is that of smelly, insensitive sperm donors? Perhaps, but that seems to be another discussion altogether. The ideas in the books are similar, such as social class, women’s role in society and how that role can be viciously unfair, but each book focuses on a different aspect of that society. Moll Flanders is concerned with the lower class, the bottom rung of society, and how one woman, against all odds, overcame her oppressive shackles of that society and came into her own. Persuasion, on the other hand, deals with the upper class society and the trials and tribulations of women, and men, in the society of position and protocol. While Moll has to fight against the oppression of lower/middle class society, Anne fights against, or rather, is quietly begrudged against the oppression of the upper class society. Both women seem to have a good head on their shoulders, and both overcome the odds to win out in the end. The ideas in the novel are similar, very similar, only the settings and sociological backgrounds are different. The protagonists, as well, are very different, though they come from very different backgrounds. Moll was born poor, got a taste of the good life, and aspired to obtain that life for herself; Anne was born into upper class people and that was where she stayed, sheltered and reserved, pampered one might even say. While the protagonists are different, would they be if their situations were reversed? Would Anne have a string of husbands and abandon children? Would Moll keep quiet reserve while her one true love was courting a stubborn child? It is an issue of nature vs. nurture, I suppose – a question that will never be answered with an absolute degree of certainty.
Does Austen give her characters “the conscience to recognize and redeem themselves,” or are they afforded such luxury because of the social status they’re given? Would Anne be so prim and proper if she had to live on the streets? Would she be so meek if she had to steel her meals? I’m inclined to think she wouldn’t be, though one can never say for sure with a hypothetical… especially ones involving fictional characters. I’m inclined to believe that if Anne grew up like Moll, she would not have such a strong moral compass, nor the mental convictions she had as an aristocrat.
To Ms. SailorGirl and the ‘rising phoenix’ comment: If you used the same idea of what the phoenix means to me to describe Anne, then I truly dig it. A phoenix goes beyond the limitations of humanity and the individual. There is always something valuable to be learned and taught at the same time. But, most importantly, to the phoenix class is irrelevant. And that’s how I think Anne rightly deserves such a tag—again, if you meant the same phoenix that I meant.
In response to Claudia, I had not thought about this type of comparison of marriage. It is a way out for women, yet Moll does not find stability while Anne does. Or perhaps, Moll does find some type of stability by the end of her life. I don't know. Anyways, good post. It made me look at the novels in a little bit of a different light.
Moll and Anne are similar in the way that they face financial struggles. These struggles do shape the paths that each woman takes but each character evolves in very different ways. Moll is forced to be almost aggressive in her life as she pursues what she wants out of life(although at times she seems quite confused). Anne on the other hand is much more reserved. She is raised in a family that puts forth the image of wealth and prosperity and they play a big part in dictating her actions. It is not until the end of Persuasion that Anne goes after the true desires of her heart instead of what she is advised to do. Moll would certainly have responded differently to the events Anne was faced.
I agree with claudia in acknowledging marriage as a common theme in both novels. The characters approach it differently and have virtually opposite views of marriage but it consumes them as they use it to provide a sense of stability or class. Moll is obviously more open minded about the unity of marriage but she still seeks out of marriage many of the same things Anne seeks such as security, true love, and wealth.
Moll Flanders and Anne Elliot are indeed very diverse characters. However, the one theme that the two share is the bitter-sweet economy in which they both are determined to thrive. For both, their social economy and standing shaped their way of life. Neither conformed to the supposed standards; they both set out to accomplish personal goals. How each attain their goal is what separates them (besides their obvious class/social standing). Moll’s choice is more rugged (and outlawish) than Anne’s.
I think both also have a sensitive side when it comes to the love of their lives. Each marries the one who they truly love despite the advice of others and previous dealings with other men.
Yes Martin, 'cleverness' and 'wit' were overlooked. Anne and Moll definitely possess these traits and each utilizes these to their advantage. I believe that's why Anne is mistreated by her dumb (for a lack of better word) family.
21 comments:
I would say the protagonists (Moll Flanders and Anne, in my opinion) in Moll Flanders and Persuasion are slightly different. But, yes, the story ideas are pretty similar to one another. However, Moll Flanders is a bit more ruthless about going after what she wants than Anne is, and doesn’t really give care to anyone who stands in her path. Anne on the other hand, is like the rising phoenix. She allows herself to be influenced by Lady Russell in the beginning, which Anne ends up regretting later in life.
Anne is a bit more reserved than Moll Flanders character is, but ends up being a hero in my opinion. She is considered an old lady past her prime at the age of 27, and is shunned by her own father and sister. In the end, Anne triumphs! Hahahaha! Both women, however, are “sheroes” in different ways, I would say.
I think these two characters may have started out very much alike but Moll's life takes a different turn after she got married the first time and her husband dies and she is left with nothing. Moll has to find ways to survive but her mehtods belies her womanhood. She chose one of the oldest professions and uses it as an excuse not to really do anything else. Anne, on the other, thinks about the providence of God and decides to be patient although her situation looks discouraging. She maintains a positive attitude and allows time to run its course in her life.
It’s obvious that the state of Anne and Moll’s sexual affairs differed tremendously, but the characters share some similar traits that are oft overlooked. Cleverness and wit both play a role in the women’s maturation. The main difference between the two is that Anne was considerate, and Moll didn’t show it until her final “repentance” at the end. Aside from sex and marriage, the economy and class structure are treated in similar fashions. In both novels, you are judged according to status, rather than merit. Moll and Anne take different paths towards their fulfillment, yet they end up at a familiar place. Everything is weighted and measured.
In Moll Flanders, Moll goes after what she wants regardless of the path that leads her there. Because of the importance of position and worth in society, women had to have money to be able to have a better life. Anne was different from Moll by the way she went with the flow of things and handled her situations more calmly. Both women, end the end, go about things differently, but end up getting what they desired.
In both novels, the marriage market is a major theme. Moll has a handful of marriages, whereas Anne could not even dream of the things that Moll got herself into. Marriage is a way out for both of these women-a way out of being alone without a source of stability. However, in Moll's case, marriage hardly ever meant stability. Her marriages and affairs were over and each time she was left with very little to live by. Moll had a more daring character and she was not nearly as timid as Anne. She was not as easily influenced as Anne was either. I would agree that though their characters were very different, their main goals appeared to be becoming wives so that they would have some sort of financial support and some way of keeping their social status, whatever that may be. It is obvious that Moll married more for necessity than for love and Anne finally got to be with the person she loved. I think this is the biggest difference between the two.
in response to martin,
i said the main difference was their reasons for marriage-love vs. necessity. i agree with you about their motives in obtaining what they wanted. i also like how you put quotations around repentance when referring to moll.
I agree that while the protagonists in each of the novels are extremely different characters, there is a certain theme that continues to drive the story. This idea is wealth or social class/status. Moll Flanders lives nearly her entire life as a scam. She hides her true identity because it is not of an appropriate social class. She makes herself appear wealthy so that she can get what she wants to survive. Anne leads a very different type of life. She is very honest, trustworthy, and reliable. Yet, she makes the biggest decision of her life based on social statuses. She chooses not to marry Captain Wentworth due to the fact that he is not "good enough" for her, at least according to her family. Later, however, she still loves him and ends up marrying him. But the idea of social status is consistently used throughout the novel as reasons for making decisions.
I think that the characters are about equal amounts similar and different. Moll is a seemingly strong woman with a pretty questional moral compass but, some of Austen's characters seem to be the same. These people are so comsumed by the all mighty dollar that it consumes them. What separates them however is that Austen gives her main heroines the conscience to recognize and redeem themselves before it becomes just religious redemption.
Cicelyj...
I agree with your comparrison of these ladies. Both women did start out in the same way. Life just threw Moll curve balls and she did what she thought was ok towards obtaining her goal. Molly took things in stride and her faith in God allowed her the time for nature to take its course.
in response to martin...
martin you did a very good job of comparing the two protagonists. it shows that you understood what both characters were about and analyzed them fairly.
actually, i couldn't have said it any better than what you have written in your comments.
nice.
I feel the ideas are similar, that of a woman trying to survive in a society that is clearly adversarial to the idea of women making it on their own. Perhaps women working and securing their own means is threatening to the societies in which these characters lived; if women can choose their own path, if they can secure their own means of financial support, if they can fend for themselves, where does that leave men? Are the men afraid that the only position they can fill in such a society is that of smelly, insensitive sperm donors? Perhaps, but that seems to be another discussion altogether. The ideas in the books are similar, such as social class, women’s role in society and how that role can be viciously unfair, but each book focuses on a different aspect of that society. Moll Flanders is concerned with the lower class, the bottom rung of society, and how one woman, against all odds, overcame her oppressive shackles of that society and came into her own. Persuasion, on the other hand, deals with the upper class society and the trials and tribulations of women, and men, in the society of position and protocol. While Moll has to fight against the oppression of lower/middle class society, Anne fights against, or rather, is quietly begrudged against the oppression of the upper class society. Both women seem to have a good head on their shoulders, and both overcome the odds to win out in the end. The ideas in the novel are similar, very similar, only the settings and sociological backgrounds are different. The protagonists, as well, are very different, though they come from very different backgrounds. Moll was born poor, got a taste of the good life, and aspired to obtain that life for herself; Anne was born into upper class people and that was where she stayed, sheltered and reserved, pampered one might even say. While the protagonists are different, would they be if their situations were reversed? Would Anne have a string of husbands and abandon children? Would Moll keep quiet reserve while her one true love was courting a stubborn child? It is an issue of nature vs. nurture, I suppose – a question that will never be answered with an absolute degree of certainty.
Does Austen give her characters “the conscience to recognize and redeem themselves,” or are they afforded such luxury because of the social status they’re given? Would Anne be so prim and proper if she had to live on the streets? Would she be so meek if she had to steel her meals? I’m inclined to think she wouldn’t be, though one can never say for sure with a hypothetical… especially ones involving fictional characters. I’m inclined to believe that if Anne grew up like Moll, she would not have such a strong moral compass, nor the mental convictions she had as an aristocrat.
Sorry, that last entry was in response to Lacy.
To Ms. SailorGirl and the ‘rising phoenix’ comment:
If you used the same idea of what the phoenix means to me to describe Anne, then I truly dig it. A phoenix goes beyond the limitations of humanity and the individual. There is always something valuable to be learned and taught at the same time. But, most importantly, to the phoenix class is irrelevant. And that’s how I think Anne rightly deserves such a tag—again, if you meant the same phoenix that I meant.
In response to Claudia,
I had not thought about this type of comparison of marriage. It is a way out for women, yet Moll does not find stability while Anne does. Or perhaps, Moll does find some type of stability by the end of her life. I don't know. Anyways, good post. It made me look at the novels in a little bit of a different light.
Moll and Anne are similar in the way that they face financial struggles. These struggles do shape the paths that each woman takes but each character evolves in very different ways. Moll is forced to be almost aggressive in her life as she pursues what she wants out of life(although at times she seems quite confused). Anne on the other hand is much more reserved. She is raised in a family that puts forth the image of wealth and prosperity and they play a big part in dictating her actions. It is not until the end of Persuasion that Anne goes after the true desires of her heart instead of what she is advised to do. Moll would certainly have responded differently to the events Anne was faced.
I agree with claudia in acknowledging marriage as a common theme in both novels. The characters approach it differently and have virtually opposite views of marriage but it consumes them as they use it to provide a sense of stability or class. Moll is obviously more open minded about the unity of marriage but she still seeks out of marriage many of the same things Anne seeks such as security, true love, and wealth.
Moll Flanders and Anne Elliot are indeed very diverse characters. However, the one theme that the two share is the bitter-sweet economy in which they both are determined to thrive. For both, their social economy and standing shaped their way of life. Neither conformed to the supposed standards; they both set out to accomplish personal goals. How each attain their goal is what separates them (besides their obvious class/social standing). Moll’s choice is more rugged (and outlawish) than Anne’s.
I think both also have a sensitive side when it comes to the love of their lives. Each marries the one who they truly love despite the advice of others and previous dealings with other men.
Yes Martin, 'cleverness' and 'wit' were overlooked. Anne and Moll definitely possess these traits and each utilizes these to their advantage. I believe that's why Anne is mistreated by her dumb (for a lack of better word) family.
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