We began our discussion of Peter's dream in class. Because we have just had Peter's point of view before he falls asleep, it seems natural that the point of view is still his. Some interpretations say the traveler is Peter himself, who sees a woman figure at the end of the path in the forest (symbol of the soul that Clarissa mentions????--just speculation) that begins as branches and sky, progresses to a mother-figure, and finally ends in the form of a landlady. This is ripe for psychoanalytic criticism as we try to analyze the dream by looking at the dream narrative and then trying to find the meaning of it. Plus, who hasn't had dreams that go all over the place? Hmmmm.
Think about that, but focus for this discussion on what he says immediately upon waking, "the death of the soul." To what is he referring and how does this comment and its origins reveal his relationship with Clarissa?
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
19 comments:
I am not sure I quite understand this question....
But I do like mystical, strange, and unknown. And I have had some doozies for dreams; the kind when you wake up, you just know it had to be true...It had to be!
Well, anyway, Peter's dream could be sending him a message or referring to the women he loved, Clarissa, and knowing that her life and marriage is unhappy, and that she almost died during a serious illness. Or, it could mean that Septimus, the war hero has lost his mind; therefore, "the death of the soul." Or, it could mean someone committed suicide...
This is a bit of a confusing question. I think that perhaps he means that his soul is only alive during his sleep, while he is dreaming. When he wakes up and comes back to reality, it is the death of his soul. This could be because in his dreams he can share a loving relationship with Clarissa and his soul is truly alive because he knows that Clarissa is the only person he ever really loved. When he is awake and in reality, however, his soul is dead because he cannot be with Clarissa. Reality is that she is married to Mr. Dalloway and they missed out on their chance together.
???
In response to Erin...
Another good point made. Perhaps Peter does feel good about his dreams because he can be with his true love.
I must say, I have had some wonderful dreams and when I woke up, I was mighty peaved that they were just that--a dream.
So I can see where you would feel that is "the death of a soul" for Peter. Because when I would think of some of my dreams for days afterwards, my soul would come alive; And I so wished I could jump back into that mystical place.
Life can be such a tease!
I could be wrong, but it is my opinion that perhaps, he was talking about the undying love he still has for Clarisa the "death of the soul" because she doesn't seem to be moved by him in ways that he wants her to be or can identify. It could also be about Clarisa's condition of being in a marriage that she is not happy but with, but because it has provided some stability in her life, she stays with Richard. In some ways, I think Peter is wrong for being angry with Clarissa, especially after all these years. She had to make a decision that she thought was best for her. I once heard an old person say that relations have an 85% to 15% ratio. If you're getting the majority of what you want, why change? Nobody is perfect so there will always be 15% that you don't like. Clarissa seems to have the 85% with Richard that she couldn't have with Peter. Besides, Peter hasn't really been successful at many things and they are over 50 now. Why would she change after all these years? It could be that if Peter had been stable, and less attached, maybe Clarissa would've left Richard for Peter.
Based on what we read, I believe that Peter still have affections for Clarissa. But after being rejected by her, he has not truly loved another woman. I don't believe that he loves Daisy like he did or does Clarissa, so to him "the death of the soul" could mean that since he feels he has nobody to share his love and feelings with, there is nobody to save him in the way he wants to be saved. Therefore, his soul is dead and he is just existing.
Cicelyj and Erin,
You both have made some good points that I agree with. sometimes dreams are pleasant enough that a person wishes they were reality. But reality says different.
I don't believe that since they are both 50 that they should settle because of age. But I do agree that people should stick it out and not give up based on their belief that "the grass if greener on the other side" because most times it's only an illusion.
Our intricate minds are all subject to fancy the oddest and wildest dreams imagined. I do think, however, that they ARE influenced by the elements surrounding us and affecting our every day lives. Peter's dream obviously reflects his relationship with Clarissa, probably the most prevalent image of a woman in his life...or so he thought. When Peter comes back, he finds a changed woman in Clarissa. According to him, she might still exhibit the surface Clarissa, but her root system is all tangled. I think it is Peter that wanders around in the dream, and I do believe that the soul's death comment can be attributed to his feelings towards Clarissa. I don't know that it is necessarily true, but Peter sure would make a case for it. He still truly loves Clarissa, yet he finds her conversion into upper class society highly detrimental.
in response to cicely,
I think that your comment about people getting 85% of what they want out of a relationship and just leaving that sour 15% alone is exactly what Clarissa, and maybe even Peter, is struggling with. "If you're getting the majority of what you want, why change?" But, I say, why should we have to settle for just the majority? Why can't we have it all? And I think that is what Clarissa and Peter are asking also. Why are they still not happy, even when they are getting the majority of what they want?
Cicely, I like how you point out that Clarissa's marriage is conditional and that although she not happy, it is 'enough,' so to say. That's where I think Woolf was going with the 'death of the soul.' Peter recognizes that Clarissa seemingly sold her soul for security. Look back to when they were younger, more liberal and free spirited: they did not comprehend British society and had a vague idea of how it actually worked. I think that Clarissa's 'soul' has died in that she has been complacent in her marriage for security reasons. The question is whether she is at fault here or whether Peter hasn't found out for himself how to manage life's perils.
Okay, so I think the traveler represents Peter and Clarissa, and maybe Septimus too. They are lost souls, unhappy with their current status. Each feels they are, in some way, alone - a solitary traveler on the road of life. The mother-figure could represent Septimus' repressed feelings for the war ("to be the figure of the mother whose sons have been killed in the battles of the world" pg.58) the elderly woman - also the mother figure - could represent Clarissa and her squandered youth. And the mother-figure seeks a lost son over the desert - Peter, India... you see the connection, you're all smart people. The land lady could represent... I don't know – tacos? Let's go with that for now. As for the "death of a soul" keeping with the "traveler" represents Peter, Septimus, and Clarisse theory, it could refer to Clarisse whose soul is squashed to death beneath the empty, shallow pageantry that with which her life has been filled. Peter's in that he feels his soul is fading, and will surly die without Clarissa, and Septimus, well, we all know how he ends up.
Erin,
I liked the "death of a soul" comparison to waking up from a dream. I've had some pretty vivid dreams that were so real I thought they were still happening for a few moments when I woke up (the one where I had to dispose of a dead body for my mom was the worst). Maybe Woolf was saying we can tap into our souls through dreams, and Pete saw his, his lost opportunity, as a part or all of his soul dying. Or maybe he just hates his mother and had potty training issues
I agree with most everyone else, this question was quite a doozy.
The worst though are the dreams that you know were just so vivid and horrible because you wake up with that thin film of sweat but you can't remember what it was. It's haunting. Ugh.
I do think that Peter's dream is his subconcious. Obviously the relationships around him are very... disfunctional.. or horrible maybe? I dunno, but they are definately not warm and fuzzy. The woman in his dream could very easily be Clarissa and his changing emotions towards his feelings for her. Maybe it is the death of his soul, or the colness in her that shows her own dead soul. I really have no clue, I'm not really good with psychoanalytical whatnot. If I was I would be a psychiatrist were the big bucks are. All I can really say is that he will always feel for her. No matter how hard he tries or what he does, those feelings will never truly and totally leave him. It's a curse we all have when we fall in love. When it is true, you never really fall out of it you can only move on if the time comes.
sailor girl,
so this is a repsonse to your response. i was just really struck by what you said. i completely agree with you and what you had to say about dreams. though I agree with Martin and Erin with their comments, it was the sense of... i dunno what to call it.. not longing... but..something of that matter that came out of what you wrote. we all have dreams that make our average lives pale in comparison and we all wish that sometimes we could go back. it is just nice to hear some one else say it. maybe i'm not so coo-coo bananas after all!! haha!
I've taken a while to respond to this because I am confused by the question. I don't really know what to think about the comment. It's a really deep thing to say upon first waking up. I really don't know how to compare his relationship to Clarissa with this dream of his. Maybe at first he sees an object of nature and he pictures so many opportunities (the branches) and maybe it's like the cliche, the sky's the limit? And then when it changes into a mother figure is when he realizes that Clarissa is dominating over him and she makes him feel like a child. Maybe this is the whole emasculated discussion we had in class. And finally, when it turns into the landlady, it represents Clarissa as this dominating woman worried only about her property and she is disconnected from the actual people involved. I don't really know how to explain that better. But maybe he says "the death of the soul" because he sees Clarissa transform from a beautiful thing of nature to a bitter creature of habit?
In response to everyone,
I am so glad to know that I'm not the only one who had some issues with this question.
And Chuck-tacos? Sometimes I can't help but smile at your randomness. At least it eases my brain a little bit from all that straining I had to do to think of an answer for this question.
I like the combo of Erin and Cicely's reponses. I just want to tell him it's WAY past time for him to be moving on with his life. Waking up, instead of giving opportunity for his heart's hopes and dreams to come ture, reminds Peter he can never be as happy as he wants to be. While he is sleeping, whether it is real or not, Peter can cherish himself and Clarissa as he desires them to be. Waking crushes I think he truly does love her, but it is much more so than she loves him for sure and so why would he want that anyway? If he truly loves her, he wants to see her happy whatever the cost. I don't know that I'd call living with Richard bliss in Clarissa's book, but it was the choice she made and thus, to a degree, what she wanted and so Peter should respect that and not try to thwart it. Peter has no business being angry at Clarissa -- it there is anyone to get angry at, it would be himself for 1) losing her due to his lack of pursuit of success and 2) not letting her or himself move on after all these years. What a waste. He's a loser.
And I agree with everyone else that this question was a bit confusing and now that I typed any reflections I had in combonation with my response I have nothing else to say unless I resort to random babblings that no are unrealted and that no one is interested in so farewell for now.
Chuck, I would just like to say--thank you for all the good reading, shocking comments and responses, and for allowing me to expand my thought process into the unknown.
You have provided me with countless minutes of entertainment that I will surely remember into the next semester.
******HEHEHEHEHEHEHEHE************
Post a Comment